The Government begins to break that kind of «secrecy» of the structural reforms that it is preparing and seeks to agree with companies, workers and users on the amendments they propose. In the following dialogue between the author of the interview and the Minister of Labor, Gloria Inés Ramírez, she explains the bases of the pension reform; She also announces that a fight against «drop by drop» loans will begin and criticizes fixed-term contracts. I open the conversation around the pension reform.
What, in essence, Madam Minister, is the reform of the pension system that is being discussed in the tripartite commission that you chair?
Regarding pensions, today there is a parallel system in the country: that of average premium, through Colpensiones, and that of individual savings, in funds. They are competition and do not fulfill the central function that we need. Our purpose is to increase the number of Colombian men and women who have a pension. Today, out of every five Colombians of pensionable age, only one manages to retire. That is what we intend to change.
How many pensioners and how many affiliates are there in the country?
In the Colpensiones medium premium regime, there are 6,700,000 affiliates and 1,594,000 pensioners. In the individual savings regime there are more than 18 million affiliates and only 294,000 pensioners. There is a system with few affiliates and many pensioners, and another with many affiliates and few pensioners.
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The pension reform that is being studied in the tripartite commission of workers, employers and the Government, what does it intend to do?
Going from a competing system to a complementary one, to effectively allow more Colombians to have the possibility of accessing a pension.
We have to reduce informality, because 57 percent of Colombian workers do not contribute due to
who do not have decent living conditions or social security
How is the complementary system that you study?
The system we prepare has 3 pillars: a first solidary pillar, which would be a financial charge of the Nation’s Budget. A second pillar is the contributory system, which means that every worker who earned up to 4 minimum wages contributes to Colpensiones and from then on they can choose their preferred fund. We propose a third pillar of voluntary savings, that is, for those people who can supplement their pension. It is fair and necessary that more and more Colombians have a pension. Universalize that benefit.
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But how do you get to universalize?
Really have access to the right because today it is on paper, but not in practice: many people do not have the possibility of contributing or getting a pension.
And how do you go about reaching that goal?
With the transfer of affiliates to Colpensiones we can free up some resources that would allow us to provide an income for older adults who have no chance of receiving an income to dignify their old age.
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This would benefit how many Colombians?
To some 3,600,000 elderly Colombians who are in misery and who in most cases live off the charity of their children.
But today there is a subsidy…
There are 1,700,000 people who today benefit from a subsidy of 80,000 pesos, which is well below the poverty line. The objective is that no person over the age of 65 is without a solidarity income that allows them a minimum of dignity.
But how are they going to pay for it if Colpensiones is already facing a high deficit?
Colpensiones has a deficit that is the hole in the general budget of the Nation. We have to reduce informality, because 57 percent of workers do not contribute, because they do not have decent living conditions or social security.
With the pension reform, is it not going to savings funds?
Wilting? No. They neither wither nor disappear. They will have an impact on their profitability, the objective is that the profitability of the pensions is distributed in the well-being of society, thus achieving that more than 3 million older adults who are today in total vulnerability can access a minimum income that allows them to live with dignity The peace of mind is that this reform will have a transition period that we will be discussing at the table.
Are pension funds essential?
They are important and it is good that they subsist, but with a system of strengthening Colpensiones.
How many members of Colpensiones are there?
In Colpensiones we have 6’779.492.
And in the funds?
There are 18,343,000 affiliates. However, Colpensiones has the largest number of pensioners: 1,527,535. And the savings funds only have 264,967. That is the inequity of the system. This is what we are going to correct so that more Colombian men and women have an income that allows them to survive in dignified conditions.
How are they going to correct?
Up to 4 minimum wages in Colpensiones and 4 minimum wages onwards to the funds of your choice. It will be done through the pillar system.
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What could the project do to make an informal pension possible?
We are going to simplify the procedures to make quoting easier. In any pension scheme, the contribution of the worker, the employer and the State is required. It is the only way in which this system can be stabilized and that is one of the essences of the pension reform.
What is the issue of night work from 6 pm?
The day is from 6 am to 6 pm That is daytime to work. And the night is from 6 pm to 6 am That is a night shift to work and you have to pay for it.
But there is a total opposition of industry and commerce…
And where is the human being? Let us bear in mind that Law 789 of 2002 curtailed the rights of workers, violating constitutional norms and international agreements. Let’s go back to social justice.
Madam Minister: Another issue: what to do with the so-called ‘drop by drop’ credits?
We are working with Banco Agrario to open microcredits. 150 of 174 credit unions are already ready to start making these small loans. The ‘drop by drop’ is an infamous poster that affects the dignity of the human being, that must be ended.
Your opinion on Uber, Didi, Cabify, Picap and other platforms
All the future is digital. The advancement of science and technology is unstoppable. They must be regularized, regulated. We must work for the transparency of the algorithm, the employment status of the workers on the platforms, the right to unionize. What employment status do the platforms have? How do you relate to your workers? Is that an employment contract or is it freelance work or is it self-employment? This is a global debate. We are working to improve working conditions, social protection, union freedom and the right to negotiate that these workers have, privacy, unfair competition and the confidentiality of information. Not all platforms are susceptible to formal labor relations, only those that provide goods and services. They are home jobs and transportation. And here in transport, when talking about unfair competition is that transport is a public system and as a public system it has regulations.
In Colombia there is a deficit of democracy and this deficit is due to the stigmatization, for example, that they did to the union movement
But do you like Uber?
I like innovation and technology. Digital platforms that have a geolocation and that are related to the provision of a public transport service must be regulated with the Ministry of Transport. The point is that it is not by prohibiting how we are going to organize it. That has no chance of serving the country. Here you have to defend the users in general terms.
Are there already basic agreements within the preparation of the labor reform?
Fundamentally we are studying how to apply all the principles of article 53 of the Constitution: vital minimum remuneration, employment stability, guarantee of social security, training, training and the necessary rest; special protection for women, maternity and minor workers, and the application of ILO international conventions.
What to do with fixed-term contracts?
They could all be an indefinite term, this is the most recent experience in Spain and they have been successful, today the clamor of the workers is that the fixed-term contracts end, they are left only for those jobs that require very temporary work Precisely, the rest, all for an indefinite term, with social security. We must put an end to job insecurity.
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Why are unions dying?
In Colombia there is a deficit of democracy and this deficit is due to the stigmatization, for example, that they did to the union movement. I had to bury many union leaders. An opinion matrix was created that unions are harmful to companies. But the unions are needed, they are the counterweight to save democracy. The unions are not harmful, what the unions do is work, they take advantage. Only 6 percent of the population is unionized in Colombia.
Only 6 percent?
That’s right, only 1,200,000 people affiliated with unions and 0.4 percent of that population bargains collectively.
What is the general situation of workers in Colombia?
Well, it is a situation of job insecurity. Precarious, because in Colombia there are many laws, but they are not followed. That is why we are strengthening the inspection, surveillance and control system that not only promotes preventive actions, but also sanctions those who do not comply with the law. Look, we have 32,000 complaints. Because the law is not followed. For social security, because they do not have health, they do not have occupational risks, for wages, for social benefits, for labor and sexual harassment. The greatest number of conflicts in this country occur because the agreements are not fulfilled.
The minister talks about the transport platforms.
And labor justice?
Pachydermic. It will take 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 years to resolve a labor issue. Union exercise has no guarantees in the country.
Madam Minister, why did the Vice Minister of Employment and Pensions, Flor Esther Salazar, resign?
I must say that I have the best concept of Dr. Flor Esther as a professional and a human being. She told me that she had a personal project that she had to attend to, she received her resignation letter, which was also irrevocable, for which I respected her decision.
Did the vice minister lead the tripartite table in charge of the pension reform?
I must clarify that the subcommittee for the construction of the pension reform was created on October 24, 2022 and is made up of unions, unions, experts and a technical team from the Government, including the Ministry of Finance, the DNP, the Dane, Colpensiones, the leadership of each of the spaces is in my charge by designation of the President of the Republic and, in addition, it has a technical secretariat that promotes tripartite dialogue. So, as you can see, it is a table whose leadership is under my responsibility.
Does this resignation not affect the preparation of the reform?
In no way, the pension reform is a project of the government plan of President Gustavo Petro. And we are building it with the labor agreement tables and with the technical teams of the Ministry of Finance, National Planning and the Ministry of Labor and the experts from the workers’ unions and the businessmen.
Wasn’t the resignation due to differences between you and her? Also, I understand that she resigned to the President. What were those differences?
There weren’t. I repeat, Yamid, she presented me with her resignation and I respected her decision.
YAMID AMAT
Special for EL TIEMPO
